Curse

Net The Nabi · May 12, 2011, 08:35 PM // 20:35

For anyone who is unaware let me enlighten you.

Pug Runs of UW are not an average of 45 minutes. They either fail 75% of the time, do it in over an hour 15% of the time, or you got lucky and filled the one spot a good sc guild needed and you got 45 minutes that very generous 5% of the time.

Alliance Runs from a decent ally will probably net you 45-1.15 hour runs on average, IF you don't fail. Ally runs from a very good SC ally will probably average 30-50 IF THEY DON'T FAIL.

Guild runs of an average SC guild will be 50-1.30 90% of the time and of course its IF they don't fail.

Good - Very good SC guilds will probably have 30-40 minute runs most of the time, 45-50 when something goes wrong, and 25-30 if everything is perfect. but at the same cost they will fail alot too, because the tactics they use to get an average time are dangerous.

If SF and SoD make you invincible why do pugs fail ALL THE TIME? Why do true duos not always conquer 4h and pits quests? Why do some people fail at the FIRST pull in the whole UW after the first skele? Why is an emo needed for the run at all? Can't he just stay at the spawn until Dhuum, BUT WAIT we should be able to tank Dhuum anyway because we have SF and SoD. Yes the two skills are very powerful when used the right way, with the right combo of other skills, but its not as OMG GAME [email protected]#RUQWRGUJHNRF as all of the anti SF people make it seem.

To Voodoo: This is not our place, we are fine with change, but when the change is unneeded and does nothing but make it easier for everyone it shouldn't happen. How is it selfish if you could do things our way? How is it selfish if you could perfectly well complete it you're way too and in a decent amount of time? But I guess time is suggestive.

To Elnino: Let me ask you this. Ever seen a person with a BDS? Thats Bone Dragon Staff if you didn't know. If SF wasn't around, and no maintainable spell prot was, it would take significantly longer to complete SoO(Shards of Orr) on a regular basis. So lets say one lucky son of a bitch gets a BDS on his first run. Since SoO takes so god damn long to do(which all of the non SC people seem to mind things that take a bit of time) he is one of if not the only person that has one, and he values it at 800 ectos. No one save maybe the person who has been around all 6 years and has done nothing but play UW with the 7 friends in his guild(no Dhumm, no skeles) all 8 of them may have 800 ectos by now. But wait, you could make this comparison with ANYTHING that drops from a dungeon or an elite area chest. The entire economy would revolve around a few people who had those ridiculous hard to find items, where we(the SC community) make those items a bit easier to farm and make the materials we use to trade for them, easier to obtain too.

With no item getting progressively better, and vanity is everything, any rare item is either worth as much as the only people who have it decide, or worth nothing, and because of the SC community we make it a happy medium of worth more then the average item, but still obtainable.

And I'm surprised you didn't want to write a wall of text to prove a point that many of us don't see, even if I'm the only one who can't see it, you like doing things the slow way right?

Ascended Furling · May 12, 2011, 09:06 PM // 21:06

I always do a complete UW clear with 3 of my guild members. Always 1 para 1 rit and and a tank sin. 3 mesmer heroes 1 ss necro and one UA monk. We always do it in 2 hours and we have fun with it.
I was very sad about the UW nerf 2 years back. It was done against the UWSC but the normal players where the once that where punished. The UWSC was just slowed down a few minutes. But now we adapted and i don't think UW needs a change. Now with 7 heroes everything is already easier. But playing in a place like UW with friends is more fun.

I wish FoW got a end boss or added something to the Malyx end chest. The malyx chest is no fun. I wish it would drop a summon stone or so. Not high end pets but just something fun. And Fow not a hard boss but something you have to do just to feel like you ended something epic like UW.

Lasai · May 12, 2011, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Net The Nabi

wall of text mainly composed of made up statistics and condescending lecture

Try to grasp that you have an opinion, nothing more.

SC is merely one gameplay option among many. It is not some valuable community service vital to the economy.

If SC was nerfed to the stone age tomorrow, both the game and the economy would adjust and move on.

Bright Star Shine · May 12, 2011, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasai

Try to grasp that you have an opinion, nothing more.

SC is merely one gameplay option among many. It is not some valuable community service vital to the economy.

If SC was nerfed to the stone age tomorrow, both the game and the economy would adjust and move on.

I see that you don't venture in the PUG SC scene a lot. Those "made up statistics" are fairly accurate, or at least give you a good general idea on how PUGs work. Hence why on the few occasions I ever set foot in UW or FoW, it's only with guild or friends..

Net The Nabi · May 12, 2011, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasai

Try to grasp that you have an opinion, nothing more.

SC is merely one gameplay option among many. It is not some valuable community service vital to the economy.

If SC was nerfed to the stone age tomorrow, both the game and the economy would adjust and move on.

Try to grasp I've been playing this game, with and without SC's for all 6 years, and from my experience with SC, which is pretty extensive, those statistics aren't just made up, they are spot on.

There is a difference if SCing was nerfed tomorrow, we still got the ectos and items out there in the first place, if SCing could never have began, we would have had the issue. Think for a minute, maybe I'm not blindly defending something because I do it, maybe I actually have validity to my argument, and because you disagree yet refuse to state why, have to make it seem as though I've said nothing that would matter in an argument.

I don't think of SCing as a vital community service, but this game economy and the game overall would have imo died long long ago without it, due to players having nothing left to do but grind long ass dungeons and elite areas to either get the money or the item they want. No one would play a game where the people who got entirely lucky controlled the economy of the game.

Lasai · May 12, 2011, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

I see that you don't venture in the PUG SC scene a lot. Those "made up statistics" are fairly accurate, or at least give you a good general idea on how PUGs work. Hence why on the few occasions I ever set foot in UW or FoW, it's only with guild or friends..

Perhaps you could share the numbers and data the "statistics" were derived from. If not, it remains a conjectural opinion.

Net The Nabi · May 12, 2011, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasai

Perhaps you could share the numbers and data the "statistics" were derived from. If not, it remains a conjectural opinion.

They were derived from SCing with all of those different examples I gave, over time. If you don't believe me, try it yourself or get more people who SC in here to add there own opinion my my stats and see how accurate they are then. You cannot comment on how long it takes an average pug group if you don't do it and never have. You can't comment on ally runs nor guild runs because its not something you do. I on the other hand, do it every single day.

Bright Star Shine · May 12, 2011, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasai

Perhaps you could share the numbers and data the "statistics" were derived from. If not, it remains a conjectural opinion.

Don't get me wrong, the numbers he gives are made up, but my point was that if you would try to get the experience yourself, what he stated is very likely what you're going to get. I don't have anything to back this up but my own PUG experience, which dates back to almost a year ago (omg, it's actually been almost a year since I PUGed UW or FoW

). If this doesn't serve as a good point for you, then fine, try it yourself I'd say..

Lasai · May 12, 2011, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Net The Nabi

They were derived from SCing with all of those different examples I gave, over time. If you don't believe me, try it yourself or get more people who SC in here to add there own opinion my my stats and see how accurate they are then. You cannot comment on how long it takes an average pug group if you don't do it and never have. You can't comment on ally runs nor guild runs because its not something you do. I on the other hand, do it every single day.

Meaningless. You have absolutely no access to numbers. You have no clue how many attempts are made in total, timestamps for all attempts, or % of attempts that are successful. Only Anet would have that information. Your % assumptions are just that.. assumptions from an extremely limited data pool. You do not even have reliable data on what I do ingame..yet make another assumption based on personal bias.

It is all opinion. The whole thread is.

For example, based upon my estimated 30+ times completion of Consulate Docks, I would say that the Master success rate is 100% solo. I've never failed it. And.. I would be full of BS because I haven't a clue what the overall master success rate is across the entire playerbase.

Golgotha · May 12, 2011, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Ah, the pissing match. What every GWG thread eventually boils down to.

Net The Nabi · May 12, 2011, 10:20 PM // 22:20

If opinions are meaningless then shut down these forums. All forums infact. Because discussion and debate simply won't happen without opinion.

Bright Star Shine · May 12, 2011, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasai

Meaningless. You have absolutely no access to numbers. You have no clue how many attempts are made in total, timestamps for all attempts, or % of attempts that are successful. Only Anet would have that information. Your % assumptions are just that.. assumptions from an extremely limited data pool. You do not even have reliable data on what I do ingame..yet make another assumption based on personal bias.

It is all opinion. The whole thread is.

You really need to relax, you're taking this all way too personal. My joke "you obviously don't venture much into the PUG" whatever I said was based on the fact that you think that the fail rate he predicts is way off, which it isn't. Of course if you take statistics as serious as you do, which I don't blame you for, then it's all a big pile of BS. But out of my personal experience, and the experience of many others, I think we can conclude that PUGs fail, and that they do a lot.
I also never claimed his % assumptions were any good, I said they were fairly accurate, which means that they come near reality.
The bottom line of his post was not that his numbers matter (if it was, I missed it, and you're right and it's all a rubbish) but that PUGs fail, and that depicting SF as a god mode with which you can do anything in game is false, because PUGs never fail to prove how bad they are and how easily they screw up, even with SF and Shroud.

Edit: for some reason I thought you quoted me there. Although I'm kind of with the other dude on the side of the SF spectrum that's actually pro and not con, I'm not taking all this stuff so seriously.

Essence Snow · May 12, 2011, 10:49 PM // 22:49

For the most part the non-sc ppl don't care about sc's...sc's are not the reason they want changes to UW. They want changes b/c UW is overly tedious now. Unfortunately the reason it's overly tedious is b/c of the changes put in place to combat sc's. Sorta catch-22 (if u will) they dont care bout sc, but sc is the reason the changes were made that they care about.

Net you can take all those stats and transfer them over to non-sc groups as well...just add minimum 1-2hrs to every time and added 10% failure rate. Remember sc's are not just faster...they are for the most part easier as well.

For those who sc and argue to those that don't that UW sholdnt be any easier...if you like the challenge...don't sc... non-sc is harder.

To boot...the non-sc's don't even really want to make uw easier....they simply want checkpoints to break up the tediousness. In mutiple post some have mention they wouldnt mind if it got harder as long as there was some sorta of checkpoint measure put in place.

Voodoo Rage · May 12, 2011, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Net The Nabi

I don't think of SCing as a vital community service, but this game economy and the game overall would have imo died long long ago without it

Do any non-"show stones" guys agree with that statement whatsoever?

Jeydra · May 12, 2011, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Net The Nabi

If SF and SoD make you invincible why do pugs fail ALL THE TIME?

If SF doesn't make you invincible why do we have screenshots like this one?

Balancing a game around bad players is silly.

@above - I don't, obviously.

Bright Star Shine · May 12, 2011, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

If SF doesn't make you invincible why do we have screenshots like this one?

Balancing a game around bad players is silly.

@above - I don't, obviously.

Well, those people are usually quite exp and know what they're doing. Put SF in the hands of a casual player and it will get disastrous.

I agree to the part though where you say it's unfair to non-SC'ers to not be able to complete UW because of the nerfs put in place for SC'ers, but Anet should find something else to that than just nerfing SF imo, because it's only a powerful tool in the right hands.

Golgotha · May 13, 2011, 12:24 AM // 00:24

SC's, SF, etc.. I don't care whether they're nerfed or untouched.

It would simply be nice to complete UW, without making it any easier, just in separate chunks. Simple as that.

Do I think Anet would ever do this? No, it would take a good amount of time and bug testing to do so. For a game that is 6+ years old, it's certain to not occur.

Vazze · May 13, 2011, 12:56 AM // 00:56

@OP. UW is indeed hard. But that is not your real problem: UW is the ONLY ONE which is hard. If you could do pve quests in HARD-hard mode using only the daily codex skill-set for better reward than what UW/SC gives now, UW probably wouldn't bother you anymore. This "I want to be 50/50" mentality is not healthy.

Horus Moonlight · May 13, 2011, 01:38 AM // 01:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voodoo Rage

Do any non-"show stones" guys agree with that statement whatsoever?

200+ stones or your opinion doesn't matter.

Godess Charmaine · May 13, 2011, 03:36 AM // 03:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horus Moonlight

200+ stones or your opinion doesn't matter.

And ther you have 1 of my agruments, if you are not in a SC team to get thouse stones you wont get in one because they wont take a "NOOB" in to sc.

my thread has nothing to do with SF, I could not care less if you are a sc player some of us dont want to sc ,we wantto play the game.

All i am putting out there, (and stop ego tripping guys) is since the nerf to stop the sc uw was made hader. cool love the challege of it just would like a SAVE point.

So that we can complete it at our leasure and not have to become a nussance to sc players buy jumping in teams we have no reasonbel right to be in for a sc. hence why you have PUG groups that fail sc.

I have a sin , I can run sf to some extent, I CANNOT SPEED CLEAR
so would you likeme to pretend to be abel to do a sc of uw and stuff up you sc run????????? or would you prefere I play the game normally and leave you guys to your sc's?

So it comes down to Do you think it is in your best intrest for the players that can ruin you pug sc teams to have a save option in uw so that we can still compleate it and stay the hell away from you perfect runs.I think that its a great idea you sc guys would benifit and so would the rest of us.

of and before some idiot jumps in and sayes OHH you have to compleate uw to get stones. I can buy enough of them to get in a pug team That would Fail, ohh and is probebly why they fail most of the time.

cheers